Engineers Australia

[Guest bcfrug]

Hi All,

 

I have a question regarding an assessment from the Engineering Governing Body in Oz.

 

I am currently working as a maintenance engineer here in Ireland looking after instillation projects and maintenance projects etc Design of equipment etc but i have no formal degree.

 

I am a fitter by trade and have progressed into this position with my experience.

 

I have already had my trade assessed by TRA for fitter for my Visa Application but can i get another assessment done now by engineer australia so i can start working as an engineer once i arrive or what should i do regarding this.

 

I have plenty of certificates etc but have no degree so im worried i will have to go back on the tools once i hit Oz.

 

Can anyone help me out on this one.

 

Much appreciated.

 

Brian

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Hi Brian

Sorry I cant help I have no idea bout engineers, just giving you a quick bump.

Kate

[tonyman]

Brian, i would get in touch with the big firms here and maybe ask them the question too,even if you did go back on the tools for a short while , once they see that you know your game inside out ,they will look after you im sure ........

[moirclan]

sounds like your job over here would be a site superviser or maybe project manager ?

 

maybe its changed but unless you had a formal uni degree you wouldnt get your qualifications translated to a engineer if you had diplomas and trade papers etc you could get paper work saying you were an associate engineer

[Guest Count Zero]

Hi All,

 

I have a question regarding an assessment from the Engineering Governing Body in Oz.

 

I am currently working as a maintenance engineer here in Ireland looking after instillation projects and maintenance projects etc Design of equipment etc but i have no formal degree.

 

I am a fitter by trade and have progressed into this position with my experience.

 

I have already had my trade assessed by TRA for fitter for my Visa Application but can i get another assessment done now by engineer australia so i can start working as an engineer once i arrive or what should i do regarding this.

 

I have plenty of certificates etc but have no degree so im worried i will have to go back on the tools once i hit Oz.

 

Can anyone help me out on this one.

 

Much appreciated.

 

Brian

I know this issue quite well as I work as an Engineer.

Yes Engineers Australia are very backwards regarding this issue which is one of the reasons Australia has such a shortage of good Engineers. Basically if you don't have a 4 year Engineering degree from a recognised Australian University they will not allow you to be called an Engineer. Even if you ran the space shuttle program they still would not flex on the issue.

The best way forward is to join a forward thinking institute like the IET which is gaining ground here in Australia. If you have the right experience you will be able to get full membership and become MIET. Most of the international consultancies recongise this and will employ you as an Engineer. Failing that you can still work as an engineering technologist in an office environment, you don't have to go back to the tools.

Don't waste your time with Engineers Australia they are dinosaurs, join the IET.

 

You should also look into the Sydney accord and the Washington accord that Engineers Australia use to judge qualifications. Again unfortunately its only a way of comparing qualifications and takes no account of work experience.

[Guest bcfrug]

Brilliant thanks so much for this Moir and Count.

Great to get some usefull info. Where could i find IET.(Just found it online)

 

Cheers

[Dizzi]

Hi just wondering if someone could help please.

 

My hubby is an electrician by trade by has been working as an Electrical Project Manager fora few years but was previously employed as an Electrical Engineer (he doesn't have a degree just all of his trade qualifications etc), would he be able to become a member of the IET in order to help him go into a more supervisory role or as PM in Oz.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Dizzi

[Guest littleward]

Hi

Im a gas fitter whos passed apprenticeship and have paper certificates im wanting to move down and am curious whever i need to apply for TRA before visa or what i first need to do ? and advice would be great thank you.

 

Phil

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Sorry I don't know the answers to your questions but wanted to say hi and welcome to the forum.

[Guest littleward]

Thank you very much sure I will find some answers on here

[Doc 53]

CZ, not sure I agree with this. I think in Brians shoes I would get in touch with IEAUST. If they say "no chance of being engineer of technologist" then at least he can make an informed choice.

With regard to Brian getting membership of the IET to either CEng or IEng, it will be very, very difficult without the required educational achievements. I know this was done in the past, now however I think this will become a rarity in the extreme. Even if Brian does get accreditation with the IET the first thing that IEAUST will ask after "what is your name" is "what uni did you study at"!

Also the IET is not that well recognized in Oz, thatbis why Mutual Recognition Agreements are in place. In Oz IEAUST rules. That is why they can award Registered Practioning Engineer accreditation for places such as QLD.

Personally I agree with this approach. I am an Electrical Building Services Design Engineer (CEng) and all too often I see the effects of people in my industry operating outside their boundaries and capabilities.

Examples include specifying lighting incorrectly, not designing protection to discriminate, not recognising differences in electrical sources and their effect on protection (mains, ups, generators), not checking transformer in rush currents, not designing IT installations to cope with harmonics or high earth leakage current, not ensuring generators are sited properly for adequate airflow....... The list goes on and on. I have had to deal with all of these, the results were sub standard installations from sub standard designs that were dangerous, some costing millions mto put right.

The UK has buthered it's engineering/manufacturing and scientific base by allowing unscrupulous employers to allow more or less any Tom, Dick or Harry to do a job they were not capable of doing so wages could be driven down.

To see the effect merely compare Germany's economy with the UK's. The continuing growth in the German economy from manufacturing exports stemming from tecnological expertise says it all.

Frankley I applaud IEAUST for not caving in and maintaining high engineering standers that will build a strong Australian economy!

 

I know this issue quite well as I work as an Engineer.

Yes Engineers Australia are very backwards regarding this issue which is one of the reasons Australia has such a shortage of good Engineers. Basically if you don't have a 4 year Engineering degree from a recognised Australian University they will not allow you to be called an Engineer. Even if you ran the space shuttle program they still would not flex on the issue.

The best way forward is to join a forward thinking institute like the IET which is gaining ground here in Australia. If you have the right experience you will be able to get full membership and become MIET. Most of the international consultancies recongise this and will employ you as an Engineer. Failing that you can still work as an engineering technologist in an office environment, you don't have to go back to the tools.

Don't waste your time with Engineers Australia they are dinosaurs, join the IET.

 

You should also look into the Sydney accord and the Washington accord that Engineers Australia use to judge qualifications. Again unfortunately its only a way of comparing qualifications and takes no account of work experience.

[Guest Count Zero]

CZ, not sure I agree with this. I think in Brians shoes I would get in touch with IEAUST. If they say "no chance of being engineer of technologist" then at least he can make an informed choice.

With regard to Brian getting membership of the IET to either CEng or IEng, it will be very, very difficult without the required educational achievements. I know this was done in the past, now however I think this will become a rarity in the extreme. Even if Brian does get accreditation with the IET the first thing that IEAUST will ask after "what is your name" is "what uni did you study at"!

Also the IET is not that well recognized in Oz, thatbis why Mutual Recognition Agreements are in place. In Oz IEAUST rules. That is why they can award Registered Practioning Engineer accreditation for places such as QLD.

Personally I agree with this approach. I am an Electrical Building Services Design Engineer (CEng) and all too often I see the effects of people in my industry operating outside their boundaries and capabilities.

Examples include specifying lighting incorrectly, not designing protection to discriminate, not recognising differences in electrical sources and their effect on protection (mains, ups, generators), not checking transformer in rush currents, not designing IT installations to cope with harmonics or high earth leakage current, not ensuring generators are sited properly for adequate airflow....... The list goes on and on. I have had to deal with all of these, the results were sub standard installations from sub standard designs that were dangerous, some costing millions mto put right.

The UK has buthered it's engineering/manufacturing and scientific base by allowing unscrupulous employers to allow more or less any Tom, Dick or Harry to do a job they were not capable of doing so wages could be driven down.

To see the effect merely compare Germany's economy with the UK's. The continuing growth in the German economy from manufacturing exports stemming from tecnological expertise says it all.

Frankley I applaud IEAUST for not caving in and maintaining high engineering standers that will build a strong Australian economy!

Most of the guys I have had working for me in the past could easily tackle the items you have listed. This is basic electrical engineering. Most of them are not Ceng! I have also seen a few Ceng guys make some pretty bad mistakes.

There a non Ceng guys out there that have done electrical design for decades that could make you look like an amateur that can not practice in Queensland and if EA had there way it would be the whole of Australia.

Who does that benefit?

To assume you are a better engineer than non Ceng people is arrogant and ill founded.

As for the UK versus Germany, this has nothing at all to do with engineering standards but more to do with a total lack of support for manufacturing in the UK

[Doc 53]

Most of the guys I have had working for me in the past could easily tackle the items you have listed. This is basic electrical engineering. Most of them are not Ceng! I have also seen a few Ceng guys make some pretty bad mistakes.

There a non Ceng guys out there that have done electrical design for decades that could make you look like an amateur that can not practice in Queensland and if EA had there way it would be the whole of Australia.

Who does that benefit?

To assume you are a better engineer than non Ceng people is arrogant and ill founded.

As for the UK versus Germany, this has nothing at all to do with engineering standards but more to do with a total lack of support for manufacturing in the UK

 

CZ, no doubt you do have decent guys working with/for you that are as good as any CEng out there. Note from my post at no point did I say a CEng is better than non CEng.

What I said is that wages for decent engineers is being driven down by employers using unqualified staff. My argument is that the UK like Oz should require registration for anyone wishing to use the title engineer.

Only a few months ago I had to send a discrimination report back to a contractor as the English was so bad it was unreasonable. It had been prepared by a new Chinese graduate. Occurrences like this are unacceptable.

[Guest Count Zero]

CZ, no doubt you do have decent guys working with/for you that are as good as any CEng out there. Note from my post at no point did I say a CEng is better than non CEng.

What I said is that wages for decent engineers is being driven down by employers using unqualified staff. My argument is that the UK like Oz should require registration for anyone wishing to use the title engineer.

Only a few months ago I had to send a discrimination report back to a contractor as the English was so bad it was unreasonable. It had been prepared by a new Chinese graduate. Occurrences like this are unacceptable.

 

I don't think you understand just how silly the situation is in Queensland. We have non chartered engineers and chartered technologists who have worked in the highest level of electrical design for many years and could easiliy do all the tasks you mentioned in your first post. Yet Engineers Australia have sold these guys up the creek by supporting a ridiculous law that states that they now can not do anything more complex than apply standards and must be supervised if they are doing any engineering! These guys have been doing the job for decades and now someone tells them they can't! It also means I have to get CPeng to sign off on work they know little about and take full responsibility by law for that work. This is expensive and dangerous because it is giving people further down the chain the impression that they are no longer accountable for their mistakes.

CPeng is most worthwhile and for sure in an engineering field that is pushing the boundries, but to make it a prerequisite for any basic engineering work is crazy. It's like telling a nurse that they need to be supervised by a doctor to change a bandage!

[Doc 53]

I don't think you understand just how silly the situation is in Queensland. We have non chartered engineers and chartered technologists who have worked in the highest level of electrical design for many years and could easiliy do all the tasks you mentioned in your first post. Yet Engineers Australia have sold these guys up the creek by supporting a ridiculous law that states that they now can not do anything more complex than apply standards and must be supervised if they are doing any engineering! These guys have been doing the job for decades and now someone tells them they can't! It also means I have to get CPeng to sign off on work they know little about and take full responsibility by law for that work. This is expensive and dangerous because it is giving people further down the chain the impression that they are no longer accountable for their mistakes.

CPeng is most worthwhile and for sure in an engineering field that is pushing the boundries, but to make it a prerequisite for any basic engineering work is crazy. It's like telling a nurse that they need to be supervised by a doctor to change a bandage!

 

CZ you have a good point. It does not change the problem, how do ensure only suitably qualified engineers practice, ensuring standards are kept high? The uk has shown that employers just cannot be trusted to do it.

The answer is regulation, however that regulation should also recognise experience.

Again CZ I think it is correct that all engineering in buildings is overseen by a registered engineer. I understand what you say about " simple engineering", but buildings can get complicated quick, especially the types I tend to work on, prisons, universities , mission critical facilities and industrial plants.

Again I have to reiterate the number of mistakes I have had to pick up when a person who has insufficient knowledge and experience just will not ask for help or have the gist to "no, I cannot do that". Just today I have had to go toe to toe with an engineer who is trying to tell a client that a project is feasible when clearly it is not.

I really sypathise with people caught in the trap of registration, especially when they are clearly able to do the job. The answer is not to do away with registration, it is to amend and adapt the process. Perhapse introduce professional engineer exams like the US, like the structural guys do in the UK?

[Guest Count Zero]

CZ you have a good point. It does not change the problem, how do ensure only suitably qualified engineers practice, ensuring standards are kept high? The uk has shown that employers just cannot be trusted to do it.

The answer is regulation, however that regulation should also recognise experience.

Again CZ I think it is correct that all engineering in buildings is overseen by a registered engineer. I understand what you say about " simple engineering", but buildings can get complicated quick, especially the types I tend to work on, prisons, universities , mission critical facilities and industrial plants.

Again I have to reiterate the number of mistakes I have had to pick up when a person who has insufficient knowledge and experience just will not ask for help or have the gist to "no, I cannot do that". Just today I have had to go toe to toe with an engineer who is trying to tell a client that a project is feasible when clearly it is not.

I really sypathise with people caught in the trap of registration, especially when they are clearly able to do the job. The answer is not to do away with registration, it is to amend and adapt the process. Perhapse introduce professional engineer exams like the US, like the structural guys do in the UK?

 

My issue is not really registration but the way it has been implemented in QLD. It can't be right when we have a 32 year old CPeng supervising the guy with 30 years experience who has been mentoring the CPeng and still does in some areas!

It also means we have to tie up CPeng guys on small projects where we should be using them just to head up the major ones. If you look up the descriptions of Ieng and Ceng it is quite clear that Ieng guys are expected to do engineering design. In fact I would argue that most areas of building services and industrial plant design is more an Ieng job than a Ceng. Ceng guys should be applying the clever ground breaking technology and math not doing lighting and power distribution designs.

 

The Ieng equivalent here is a technologist and these are the guys that have been badly let down by Engineers Australia. If the UK goes down this route the institutes will loose thousands of members and engineering will suffer as I think it has here.

 

I don't think engineering here is better than the UK in anyway and I can tell you that from experience so the registration system is not working as it was suppose to. There is also a backlash against registration by CPeng's because many are getting huge fines for making mistakes or letting mistakes through.

[Doc 53]

Totally agree CZ. Instead of using CPEng as a tool to recognise an engineering level it is being used as a QA tool, silly. is anyone campaigning for a more logical registration?

[Guest Count Zero]

Totally agree CZ. Instead of using CPEng as a tool to recognise an engineering level it is being used as a QA tool, silly. is anyone campaigning for a more logical registration?

The only campaign I've heard of is by the CPeng guys who are most upset because they have realised that they have voted for a system that holds them accountable for everyones mistakes and the fines are huge!